Peter Attia MD 167 - Gary Taubes: Bad science and challenging the conventional wisdom of obesity

Peter Attia MD 167 - Gary Taubes: Bad science and challenging the conventional wisdom of obesity 49,113 viewsJun 28, 2021 Peter Attia MD 129K subscribers Gary Taubes is an investigative science and health journalist and a best-selling author. In this podcast, Gary explains how he developed a healthy skepticism for science as he was transitioning from being a physics major to beginning as a science journalist. He talks about how he was particularly drawn to sussing out “pathologic science,” telling the stories behind his books on the discovery of the W and Z bosons and cold fusion, emphasizing the need for researchers to perform a thorough background analysis. Gary then describes how his work came to focus on public health, nutrition, and obesity. He provides a great historic overview of obesity research and provides his explanation for why the conventional wisdom today is incorrect. We discuss: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:00:10 - Gary’s background in science and journalism, and developing a healthy skepticism for science; 00:08:27 - Gary’s boxing experience, and the challenge of appreciating behavioral risk; 00:18:55 - How Gary developed his writing skills, and what the best science writers do well; 00:29:53 - Example of how science can go wrong, and the story behind Gary’s first book, Nobel Dreams; 00:43:22 - Theoretical vs. experimental physicists: The important differentiation and the relationship between the two; 00:48:52 - Pathological science: research tainted by unconscious bias or subjective effects; 01:00:39 - Reflecting on the aftermath of writing Nobel Dreams and the legacy of Carlo Rubbia; 01:05:39 - Scientific fraud: The story of the cold fusion experiments at Georgia Tech and the subject of Gary’s book, Bad Science; 01:24:45 - Problems with epidemiology, history of the scientific method, and the conflict of public health science; 01:46:51 - Gary’s first foray into the bad science of nutrition; 01:58:04 - Research implicating insulin’s role in obesity, and the story behind what led to Gary’s book, Good Calories, Bad Calories; 02:10:00 - The history of obesity research, dietary fat, and fat metabolism; 02:21:47 - The evolving understanding of the role of fat metabolism in obesity and weight gain; 02:32:37 - Mutant mice experiments giving way to competing theories about obesity; 02:38:30 - How Gary thinks about the findings that do not support his alternative hypothesis about obesity; 02:45:19 - Challenges with addressing the obesity and diabetes epidemics, palatability and convenience of food, and other hypotheses; 02:57:30 - Challenging the energy balance hypothesis, and the difficulty of doing good nutrition studies; Show notes page: https://peterattiamd.com/garytaubes/ -------- About: The Peter Attia Drive is a weekly, ultra-deep-dive podcast focusing on maximizing health, longevity, critical thinking…and a few other things. With over 30 million episodes downloaded, it features topics including fasting, ketosis, Alzheimer’s disease, cancer, mental health, and much more. Peter is a physician focusing on the applied science of longevity. His practice deals extensively with nutritional interventions, exercise physiology, sleep physiology, emotional and mental health, and pharmacology to increase lifespan (delay the onset of chronic disease), while simultaneously improving healthspan (quality of life). Learn more: https://peterattiamd.com Subscribe to receive exclusive subscriber-only content: https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter Connect with Peter on: Facebook: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDFB Twitter: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDTW Instagram: http://bit.ly/PeterAttiaMDIG Subscribe to The Drive: Apple Podcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveApplePodcasts Overcast: http://bit.ly/TheDriveOvercast Spotify: http://bit.ly/TheDriveSpotify Google Podcasts: http://bit.ly/TheDriveGoogle Chapters Intro 0:00 Gary’s background in science and journalism, and developing a healthy skepticism for science 0:10 Gary’s boxing experience, and the challenge of appreciating behavioral risk 8:27 How Gary developed his writing skills, and what the best science writers do well 18:55 Example of how science can go wrong, and the story behind Gary’s first book, Nobel Dreams 29:53 Theoretical vs. experimental physicists: The important differentiation and the relationship between the two 43:22 275 Comments rongmaw lin Add a comment... Peter Attia MD Pinned by Peter Attia MD Peter Attia MD 10 months ago In this episode we discuss: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:00:10 - Gary’s background in science and journalism, and developing a healthy skepticism for science 00:08:27 - Gary’s boxing experience, and the challenge of appreciating behavioral risk 00:18:55 - How Gary developed his writing skills, and what the best science writers do well 00:29:53 - Example of how science can go wrong, and the story behind Gary’s first book, Nobel Dreams 00:43:22 - Theoretical vs. experimental physicists: The important differentiation and the relationship between the two 00:48:52 - Pathological science: research tainted by unconscious bias or subjective effects 01:00:39 - Reflecting on the aftermath of writing Nobel Dreams and the legacy of Carlo Rubbia 01:05:39 - Scientific fraud: The story of the cold fusion experiments at Georgia Tech and the subject of Gary’s book, Bad Science 01:24:45 - Problems with epidemiology, history of the scientific method, and the conflict of public health science 01:46:51 - Gary’s first foray into the bad science of nutrition 01:58:04 - Research implicating insulin’s role in obesity, and the story behind what led to Gary’s book, Good Calories, Bad Calories 02:10:00 - The history of obesity research, dietary fat, and fat metabolism 02:21:47 - The evolving understanding of the role of fat metabolism in obesity and weight gain 02:32:37 - Mutant mice experiments giving way to competing theories about obesity 02:38:30 - How Gary thinks about the findings that do not support his alternative hypothesis about obesity 02:45:19 - Challenges with addressing the obesity and diabetes epidemics, palatability and convenience of food, and other hypotheses 02:57:30 - Challenging the energy balance hypothesis, and the difficulty of doing good nutrition studies 26 High Intensity Health High Intensity Health 10 months ago Another great show! 39 Dawn E Dawn E 10 months ago Twelve years ago my husband had 3 stokes and we found out he was diabetic. I had been starving myself obese on 1200 low fat, high fibre calories a day, so had no problem putting him on the diet they gave me for him. For every 3 weeks, for 8 months both he and his bloodwork were worse. That is when I watched a lecture and read Good Calories/Bad Calories. Used the British diet in the Prologue. The next bloodwork showed improvement. Kept getting better. Several months later a stranger understood him. I went from size 18 to 6/8. Gary Taubes is a hero. Way better than an astronaut. 68 fred jones fred jones 10 months ago Peter: you were much better here at listening; and pausing; well done. It is an extraordinary skill; to ask as finely parsed a question as possible; with as few words as possible; then fall silent; silent; silent and let the person being interviewed have the space and time to reflect; and answer. For so many of those who interview; they seem to me to interrupt far too much; surely let the person who is being interviewed; have the space and time to tell their story. Cherish the silence after a brief question is asked; best wishes 15 Beverly Hollister Beverly Hollister 10 months ago Thank you for allowing the masses to observe the brilliance of "superb critical thinking and questioning" the science as Gary Taubes and Peter Attia question for the long-term benefit of future generations. I never knew the background of Gary Taubes in science & physics. In my career I rarely saw obesity in Asia during the mid-'90s and within 10 years it was more common. My daughter, an excellent internal medicine and obesity physician in Pasadena, California introduced me to both of you years ago. Thank you for expanding consciousness. Please keep questioning, writing and sharing. "The application of the current model is failing." 8 Howley Boy Howley Boy 10 months ago Gary is a bad ass! He can smell BS from a mile away. And, I love his deadpan delivery. 10 Darko Fit Coach Darko Fit Coach 10 months ago Gary Taubes was my first introduction into going full keto, this was back in 2013. greta book, fantastic knowledge and great person Gary 18 Diet prof Diet prof 10 months ago Thank you Peter for this incredible interview. I think Gary is one of the top science journalists. His book, Good Calories, Bad Calories, started my journey into nutrition and health. 24 Jayakrish j Jayakrish j 10 months ago Dr. Peter has taught me essentially how to think about health and step away from the clutter of information. He should be 10X more popular! 8 Dean Riley Dean Riley 10 months ago Gary’s GCBC is one of the most enlightening books I ever read; it has continued to influence my thinking about food and science for years. 5 Kathleen Dexter Kathleen Dexter 10 months ago I am relieved to be able to ask my husband to watch one of my favorite YouTube channels due entirely the introduction of this video. This was an utterly fascinating interview from the outset. Thank you, Dr. Attia, for allowing Mr. Taubes the opportunity shares his views, his investigative journalism and factual information. It put me into the “fly on the wall” perspective as your interview style is enviable. You definitely develop a rapport as you take the time to put them at ease. Your gentle teasing to reassure Mr. Taubes was appreciated. What an incredible conversation regarding risk, from discussing boxing to dietary change, and helping your audience (those willing to listen) become mindful of the direct link between a proper human diet and the human body’s longevity. ‘Speaking as a late-stage cancer patient (in full remission for the 4th year) and pre-diabetic, I wish I had found the Low Carb community sooner, but like with anything else, you don’t appreciate what you have until it’s gone…or threatened. 13 Andreea Nitescu Andreea Nitescu 6 months ago Peter, one day soon I hope you'll have Andrew Huberman on the podcast—that would be fantastic. According to his research, your assumption that your response to Dorritos is CNS-driven is correct. In our gut, we have neurons that, via the vagus nerve, communicate to the brain what we are eating in real time. He explains how the data have shown we will eat until our brain senses a particular profile of amino acids required. Additionally, if the neurons in our gut sense sweet foods, even if you numbed the taste buds and the person couldn't taste sweet, they would still crave more because of the neurons in the gut which relay the information to the brain (this is something Rick Johnson also touched on but didn't link it to the neurons in our gut fact). 3 Gabriele Kennedy Gabriele Kennedy 10 months ago I love these long thoughtful conversations. Thank you. 9 Cars Guns and Guitars Cars Guns and Guitars 10 months ago I'm so thankful for your podcast Dr. Attia. Thanks for having Gary on! 2 Enila 12 Enila 12 10 months ago Love listening to Gary Taubes...amazing mind. 15 Lars Narip Lars Narip 10 months ago Phatastic episode! Taubes comes out in all its colourful facets. The guy has so much more up his sleeve than the unfortunately too often one-dimensional "friend-foe" thinking of many food Taliban allows. And what a great interview job from Peter! It was a pleasure for me as a listener, how Peter gives the life and thinking of Taubes a wide space. Peter is becoming more and more an insightful and at the same time level-headed voice in the discussion about healthy nutrition, which has unfortunately become a trench warfare. 14 JerzeyBird JerzeyBird 10 months ago Such an excellent discussion. Thank you to you both. 5 grmreeeepr grmreeeepr 10 months ago Outstanding interview! Gary and Peter - the dynamic duo 3 Anna Bell Anna Bell 7 months ago Gary Taube is a hero, imo. I recommend "Why we Get Fat and What to do About It" to everybody. I read it about ten years ago and the 20 lbs I was trying to lose for my entire life (decades) fell off because I did what he said to do (eat meat and any green leafy vegetables. No sugar, pasta, or rice- the things that are supposedly not the problem. Light cream, not milk, in coffee.) It took a month. I couldn't believe it. Everyone is so brainwashed by conventional nutritional advice they think I'm lying. 3 Sanguine Sanguine 10 months ago The story of Carlo Rubbia is crazy. I run into plenty of people lacking awareness, but his seems to be such a pathological level it still surprises me. 6 Janice Livingston Janice Livingston 1 month ago Boy oh boy. I could listen to Taubes for hours. “Why we get fat” was an incredible read. This interview is making me want to re read it. He’s so humble - talking about that wrongheaded scientist, then saying: btw he’s over 100 so 🤷‍♀️. I think when we hear someone being honest, we listen more closely… now I have to go see what his latest book is… I have two, should have more… thank you! Thomas Giovinozzo Thomas Giovinozzo 9 months ago Appreciated this podcast and both men, but was curious about two omissions: - they referenced NuSi a few times, but only briefly and tangentially. Given they were founding members and worked together for several years on it, I would have appreciated a little more air time on their experience together on the endeavor - including the controversial components - an acknowledgment by Peter of Gary’s huge influence over the last 20 years on practicing doctors, clinicians, dieticians, academics, et al on researching and putting into practice the concepts and advantages of LCHF/Keto at an incredibly broad level and acceptance rate. That was Taubes’ goal with GCBC book, and it has worked. Be well all. 3 T E T E 10 months ago As others have said, his work (NYT magazine article) changed my life almost 20 years ago. 30 Shari Creamer Shari Creamer 10 months ago I can't believe this team-up is finally happening. Best Monday ever. 24 IFH IFH 10 months ago Almost two hours in and loving this. 5 cathal butler cathal butler 10 months ago Listening to the beginning of this interview it sounded like they barely know each other .."I cant remember last time I saw you" etc...and yet the both set up a non profit in 2012 Nusi (funded largely by the Arnold Foundation) to research obesity ...and over the next 4 to 5 years they were both paid handsomely. According to public records, Attia received an average of $425,000 per year for four years, including $727,754 in 2015 (the year he resigned), for a grand total of $1.7 million. Taubes received an average of $117,000 per year for five years, netting $586 thousand. 2 Jessica Johnson Jessica Johnson 10 months ago Soooo interesting! Thank you Gary Taubes for you interest and work. I'm 58 and have yoyo'd dieted my whole life listening and trying everything that came up. I've lost over 90 lbs so far since November using LCHF and intermittent fasting. I've read Dr Fung's Obesity Code and it just makes so much sense to me. Now I understand why!! Thank you for this interview. Watching these keeps me motivated. You two are brilliant! Many thanks 💞 8 a mitrock a mitrock 10 months ago Great pod - thank you! Have read Taub's books but have also read "Fiber Fueled: The Plant-Based Gut Health Program for Losing Weight, Restoring Your Health, and Optimizing Your Microbiome" by Will Bulsiewicz. The insulin angle completely ignores the role the microbiome plays in obesity. Would love to hear a thoughtful discussion this topic. 6 Jeanne DiGennaro Jeanne DiGennaro 10 months ago Such an important discussion of what makes good science. Thank you! 1 George Young George Young 3 months ago this was an amazing interview. you are both such great speakers Shanteen Shanteen 10 months ago Thank you Peter, for this interview. I utterly enjoyed every minute of the 193 minutes. Have always been interested to know the full story on Gary's background and what makes him tick. 11 Suzanne Looms Suzanne Looms 10 months ago Superb. Thank you for this thoughtful discussion about a wide range of science topics. I particularly appreciated the power lines/poverty suggestion. 3 Fernando Fernando Fernando Fernando 10 months ago Thank you very much to both of you for the good work you've done and going through this long interview/podcast. I've learned a lot from those two critical thinkers in the past and respect them both. Nevertheless it is fun thinking that suddenly Gary got some epiphany when at 02:31:24 - Peter ask him about the increase level of insulin and at 02:32:12 Gary start to realize: "Why I did not think about it earlier?" Rob Hanna Rob Hanna 10 months ago Well done, Peter. Great content and cogency. 8 juliano0moreira juliano0moreira 10 months ago Amazing talk! Thanks for sharing!!!! 2 knight knight 10 months ago Another great contribution to logic and scientific research fundamentals 5 Sujaan Sujaan 10 months ago (edited) “The application of the current model is failing.” Brilliant! 26 mulligan dh mulligan dh 10 months ago Taubes is intelligent enough to not try to make himself sound intelligent thus alienating 99% of the audience. I can see how his writing would be much more palatable to the lay audience. 8 Michael Michael 1 month ago I got really excited. Finally, once and for all I thought I'd get definitive, concrete answers. I was disappointed. Garry seemed to flounder at the slightest challenge. marlene murrah marlene murrah 10 months ago Excellent! Fascinating Gary Taubes! Hope he makes enough money so he can continue the battle! Bob Beasley Bob Beasley 10 months ago Gary, I care. A lifetime of fighting obesity, years of reading Peter. I'll never forget the picture of Peter on the beach in Hawaii after one of his epic swims with his pregnant wife. How could this guy have a belly? What hope would there be for a fat hobby triathlete such as I? I slog on avoiding carbs like poison. Thank you both for what you do! 10 Will Peterson Will Peterson 10 months ago Holy shit I had no idea how generally well-rounded Taubes is. 15 Uday Pasricha Uday Pasricha 10 months ago We cannot get progress on the LCHF acceptance by the health agencies because the processed food industry, sugar, confectionery, breakfast etc are perhaps 100’s of billions and millions of jobs. This is like covid where after lockdowns there is an acceptance that livelihood vs life has an economic ratio that can be traded. In this case carbs and sugar are too large in economic terms. The treatment of their consequence adds another 100 billion. So LCHF is a pure personal choice. So who ever listens and reads Gary and your channel can have better healthcare 4 Ben Nguyen Ben Nguyen 10 months ago After watching Gary debate Stephan Guyenet on Joe Rogan, I would love to hear Gary steel-man the points made against the carb-insulin model. 3 Wendy Fried Wendy Fried 10 months ago Gary is the OG. 6 Umm Abdullah Umm Abdullah 2 months ago I came for the discussion about obesity but ended up fascinated by the whole three-plus hours. Thanks. David Adames David Adames 10 months ago I never thought I'd be taking nutrition advice from Owen Wilson. 2 Bob W Bob W 10 months ago (edited) Thx. So, I went low carb, dropped a1c from 9.0 to 5.5 and lost 65 lbs. How did the carb insulin model fail again? Lol. It didn't fail for me. 5 Brian Corbin Brian Corbin 10 months ago How can you have science to explain what makes a fat cell fat that is different from what makes the entire human fat? He brings up good points. He frequently says he could be wrong. Let's test it. The world has been testing the other for over 40 years. That hypothesis has brought everyone (collectively) to a very bad place. 4 bruh bruh bruh bruh 10 months ago Brilliant guy 3 Lean McHungry Lean McHungry 10 months ago A fascinating talk, but staring at the great Mr Taubes face for three hours... the mind wondered. Is that a smoldering anger, or is that just me. Whatever it was fascinating, all power to him. Donald Lancaster Donald Lancaster 10 months ago Buy all of Mr Taubes books! Mr Taubes Thank you so much ! You saved my life. 1 Pottenger's Human Pottenger's Human 10 months ago Wow, what a talk. 4 Lying Eyes Lying Eyes 1 month ago If memory serves me right, it was the pollen that was dated to the eleventh century. Which only meant it was exposed to the environment. (Shroud) chaz wyman chaz wyman 3 weeks ago Epidemiologists are self interested to push for findings so that they remain relevant to keep their jobs. This tendency mutates to announcements of wonderful discoveries. But whatever they could ever find can only ever be a starting point to investigate possible causalities , they can NEVER be an end in themselves. Steve Haebig Steve Haebig 10 months ago Without question, the best investment in YouTube time i've ever had. 10 Merlin Geikie Merlin Geikie 1 month ago Yes Peter, ...pause....., pause....when you interrupt, make it like ice skating...finely coordinating with the interviewee. Doing well. 1 T D T D 10 months ago (edited) Two of my favorite "go-to" people wrt optimal health. Glad Taubs was mid-pack in astro physics because he's since had a big positive effect on the world. 2 Behrnahrd Behrnahrd 8 months ago One great challenge is vegetarians/vegans. They are plenty in the media and have different reasons (other than finding the truth about what's healthy) for supporting the way they eat, and they want the whole world to do the same. In other words, of course activists are biased. 2 Mckenna D.W. Mckenna D.W. 3 weeks ago (edited) A good question I would love to see addressed is that if fats are so bad (from mainstream doctors) then WHY does the ketogenic or Modified Atkins Diet help lesson to eliminate seizures in people with epilepsy? My daughter has had epilepsy since age 7 (she will be 50 this year) and now is seizure free, due to getting adequate fat, which her doctor from India seems to find it hard to back 100% as he is a vegetarian. I'm her care giver as she is mildly mentally challenged, and I'm careful with her diet. She likes salads but simple carbs are out and she has a lot of animal protein as well as whole coconut milk, heavy cream, and butter. From what I've read, the low carb, high fat diets stop more seizures then medicines with all of the side effects associated with seizure medicine. I'd be very interested in hearing more about the Randall Effect. Thank-you for this interview! Julian Rodriguez Julian Rodriguez 2 months ago Gary, please do an article on the Sinclair Resveratrol debacle Cyndi Petray Cyndi Petray 10 months ago Two of my favorite nutritional gurus! So glad I’m up at 4:45 in the morning to see this video drop. 9 lynchbeast lynchbeast 5 months ago "if we're going to get practical here Peter then we're not going to make any progress whatsover" 2:47:15 1 Genghisnico13 Genghisnico13 10 months ago Awesome interview, unfortunately bad science is the root of a lot of modern problems. 14 J J 10 months ago We were experimenting on ourselves in Uk with the Atkins regime back in the 1970s. Isn,t it wonderful how so many folk now getting fascinated by what we stuff down our gullets! Just remember what killed Atkinson! ( although that is not statistical significant - any more than Gary T watching to see if he gets a heart attack ) Studying multi factorial disease is complicated! The role, influence & power of food industry the biggest problem in a world of industrial food. The role of politics in this is the discussion that,s needed. Who stops the influx of high sucrose corn syrup and so much more? Who influences the availability, affordability of veg, fruit, whole grains unprocessed foods plus the skills to prepare it? Just asking. It needs both ‘personal responsibility’ but also policy to redirect the supply chain and start to cultivate that necessary culture change…..Great that schools now digging up the ground and planting and growing fruit and veg! &TheHorseYouRodeInOn &TheHorseYouRodeInOn 8 months ago USDA NIFA is now addressing "nutrition security" but without acknowledging their role in the obesity/type 2 diabetes epidemic with their dietary guidelines. I'm debating sending the new NIFA director a few links to podcasts and youtube videos and asking about a response. Must do so fairly anonymously, I think, given my employment at a land-grant institution. Madelaine Dusseau Madelaine Dusseau 10 months ago Maybe Dr. Attia needs a good corn tortilla or a slice of well-made wheat bread to eat during his feeding period? I can't imagine being that triggered by doritos, which are way too salty tasting and have a horrible fake cheese taste. Your mileage may differ... 1 Linda Bladon Linda Bladon 10 months ago I was gripped all the way through. 2 MrApplewine MrApplewine 10 months ago 1:05:00 Disproving "Cold Fusion" Is like disproving "I can't Believe It's not Butter" Isn't butter. It isn't fusion, but is something. So, you are missing the point. Gary should follow up on t